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Croak vs. Croaking

I know this page was started by Rob, but I think we should consider renaming it croak. [[croak]]ing works, but croaked needs [[croaking|croaked]]. --Kreistor 21:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Croaked vs. Deceased

Should there be a distinction between Croaked and Deceased? Croaked units can be uncroaked, but after they've de-popped (deceased) that can no longer happen. So is that enough of a distinction to require two different pages?

Is there a Deceased page? There are separate pages for Croaked and Croaking (the former is older, but the latter was created by the Titan so I guess it is especially valuable). :) -- Muzzafar 04:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Not that I'm aware of. I'm just wondering if there should be one. It's confusing to me. Ansom is croaked because his body hasn't disappeared yet. What happens when his body disappears? Is he still deemed Croaked?
Are Golems re-animated from croaked bodies? Not in most rules systems they're not...
There is no Deceased page. It's hard to maintain something like that when people are getting uncroaked and recroaked. I listed the dead of Gobwin Knob on its own page. That should be enough. --Kreistor 13:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I think you mistook him. I don't think he was calling for a roll of the dead, I think he wanted a separate entry called "Deceased" for the state of people like Misty, who were croaked and then "ceased to be" or "de-popped" and are now unable to be Uncroaked or Decrypted. So, Misty, Bogroll, King Saline, etc, would all be under that heading. - Commander I. Heartly Noah


It is still unclear what 'moved' means, does it require movement to a new hex? If you move a body in your turn, does it reset the clock and thus the unit disappears at the start of your next turn? This means that moving isn't a very useful effect.

Also, this rule is unfair on sides that occur earlier in the turn order.

The effect of this rule is that

  • If you kill a unit on your turn, you must uncroak them before the end of your turn
  • If you kill a unit when they attack you, then you can uncroak them on your next turn

However, if the unit that was killed was the side's last unit, then absolute turn order matters.

  • If you kill a unit on your turn, the rule is still that you must uncroak them before the end of your turn
  • If they attacked you, then you may not get a chance to uncroak the unit on your turn.

For example, consider the situation,

The Ruler (without heir) leads an attack on an enemy city.

He is killed while he is attacking.

The defending side's croakamancer is in a nearby city.

If the defending side is last in the turn-order. The croakamancer can be recalled to the city and uncroak all the attackers.

However, if they are first in the turn order, by the time they get a turn, night will have passed and all the units will disappear.

A similar problem can be caused if sides switch alliance and moves their position so that it occurs before the defenders.

A fairer rule would be that the unit decroaks when all sides have take a turn, with the side that is currently moving when the unit dies counting as having moved. This has the same effect as the official rule in almost all cases, but handles the edge cases in a fairer way.

There are still potential problems caused by people changing alliance arrangements though, i.e. moving your slot to later in the day could cause some sides to get 2 turns with the units uncroaking. A reasonable rule would be that if your slot position changes to a later position, due to an alliance, you count as having have a chance to uncroak.

--Raphfrk 10:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, an even easier rule would be
  • body disappears at the start of the next turn of their side
  • If a side is destroyed, it still gets one more "tidying up" turn
  • If a side switches alliance, all deaths that occured while allied, are dealt with as if it was still a member of the alliance
  • If an alliance changes turn position, all deaths that occured while at the previous position are dealt with as if still at that position.
--Raphfrk 12:08, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Raph, "Moved" is Parson's word for it. Rob has also used the word "claimed", as in: the corpse didn't disappear because Wanda claimed it. So there are missing mechanics there. For the moment, we use Parson's term, but need to keep an open mind that his information is incomplete at that point in time.

And it is fair. There may be a nighttime, but it does not disrupt the circular turn order. Nothing happens at morning for all Sides: that was an early confusion because GK had the first turn of the day. All things happen at the beginning of Turn, and so Nighttime is actually irrelevant. For instance, Parson initially is told that food pops at dawn, but later he gets his Luckamancy Charms after TV and Ccomm have moved, placing GK food pop at beginning of turn, not daawn. That's because in the first comics, TV took turn later with Jetstone, and Ccomm wasn't in the Turn Order, so GK was first. So, if you remove night from the list, you'll find everything happens in the same sequence for everyone. --Kreistor 21:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Well night does seem to have some significance. You can only move once per day no matter how you ally with, and days start and end at dawn and dusk. Also, Rob added the rule about bodies disappearing at dusk for sides which are destroyed. However, I agree, ideally, night should just be another 'special' side's turn. --Raphfrk 21:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In Panel 146:2 we can see a Decrypted Gobwin. Since GK's turn had already started, all bodies should have been claimed by Wanda (she couldn't have moved each body before Decrypting) She also comments about the state of Bogroll's body, which she has found, in 146:3. An alternative would be that the Gobwin's turn hadn't started (the volcano could have undone the alliance with GK) and she had found Bogroll's body while searching for the Arkenpliers.

I agree, I think the Canon rules are just wrong/don't match the comic :). I think the most reasonable rule would be that all bodies de-pop at the start of current side's next turn. Thus all bodies that died in the RCC turn wouldn't de-pop until the RCC's next turn. --Raphfrk 19:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
That's an interesting problem actually, Gobwins are Natural Allies so they are actually their own side but their entire side was wiped out by the volcano so their corpses should have disappeared at nightfall [which was immediately after]. It seems that the rule actually works out as "+12/24 hours then nightfall" so if the corpses are created at the end of the day, they persist until nightfall of the day after. The RCC corpses are covered by waiting for Jetstone/Unaroyal/etcs next turn but we don't know if Wanda decrypted Gobwin Knob's own infantry which would violate the "start of next turn" rule [I think she may have decrypted Hobgobwins which does violate this].
I don't know what exactly Rob was trying to achieve with these rules, it seems he wanted to prevent uncroaking your own troops unless it was still your turn when they died, or they die in the same hex as the Croakamancer. It would have been much simpler to just say that corpses remain for 2 days (They vanish at nightfall the day after the day they died). 10:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)